Catching up on Green Lantern TPBs, and isn't it funny....

[The Sprat]

Mogo, Leezle Pon, Sodam Yat, Ranx, Black Mercy, Blackest Night, Empire of Tears... most of the pillars of the current GL storylines are based entirely off of stuff that Alan Moore created as one-off throwaways.

I wonder if Moore finds that amusing.  I sort of imagine that to him, Geoff Johns looks like a little kid trying to dress up in Daddy's clothes.

[John Popa]

I get the same vibe when in the middle of one his retcons back to the Silver Age Johns has one of his token scenes of gruesome violence and unexpected profanity.  It's like he's trying to prove to the British writers that he can be edgy too.

[The Sprat]

Oh, that's not so much what I was referring to, although it is depressingly true at times.  See:  anything involving the Red Lanterns, since apparently they fight by literally puking blood.  Adorable.

For instance, the Black Mercy was, if memory serves, introduced in the legendary "For The Man Who Has Everything" story.  And it pretty much functioned as a chilling plot device to genuinely piss off Superman and also show the audience how alien & alone he felt.  That's all.

Johns, Tomasi, and the current DC editorial have ran onto that one, throwaway plot device created by Alan Moore, and turned the Black Mercy into something that the original Mongul used as one of his signature weapons, and passed off on to his son.  There is a whole planet full of Mercies, led by a sentient overmind, Mother Mercy, who has recently been selected to be a Green Lantern herself.  And so on.

Etc, etc.  It's reminiscent of how the current show-runners (and a lot of the newer fans) of "Doctor Who" seem to think that the show is to any degree ABOUT the Time Lords, regeneration, etc.  It's standing on the shoulders of giants and missing the forest for the trees at the same time.

[Dirt]

From what I've read of Moore, I don't think he really cares.

[Captain_Marvel]

Etc, etc.  It's reminiscent of how the current show-runners (and a lot of the newer fans) of "Doctor Who" seem to think that the show is to any degree ABOUT the Time Lords, regeneration, etc.  It's standing on the shoulders of giants and missing the forest for the trees at the same time.

What?? Yeah, there's been a lot of stuff about Doctor Who being the last of the time lords now, but there's been one (well, one and a half...) regenerations thus far, and I hardly think that's the problem. If anything, they're relying on the Daleks too much. They've been the Big Bad, what, 3 out of 4 seasons now? I think the show's going to vastly improve under Moffat's direction.

[The Sprat]

From what I've read of Moore, he's an unpredictable lunatic.

fixed

[The Sprat]

What?? Yeah, there's been a lot of stuff about Doctor Who being the last of the time lords now, but there's been one (well, one and a half...) regenerations thus far, and I hardly think that's the problem. If anything, they're relying on the Daleks too much. They've been the Big Bad, what, 3 out of 4 seasons now? I think the show's going to vastly improve under Moffat's direction.

The idea that the Doctor can change his physical form goes back to the 'Tenth Planet'; but it took a long time for the concept of to be systematized within the show's internal mythos. When Doctor Pat changed to Doctor Jon, there was no suggestion that this was a normal part of the Doctor's life-cycle: the Time Lords announced that they were going to change the Doctor's physical appearance so that he wouldn't be recognized on earth during his exile. One gets the impression that the writers were saying 'We've already used the idea of the Doctor's old body being worn out: we'll have to think of a different excuse for to the actor change this time.' (It will be remembered that Plan A was for The Celestial Toymaker to put a spell on the First Doctor, causing his face to change.) Even when the term 'regeneration' was coined for the Pertwee-Baker change-over, writers carried on having different ideas of how it worked: Terrance Dicks still seemed to think that different Doctors were somehow different individuals; Douglas Adams imagined that Time Lords could change bodies as easily as they could change clothes. Robert Holmes introduced the idea that they could only regenerate twelve times, seemingly unaware that Philip Hinchcliffe had already decided that the Doctor was already on his twelfth regeneration. As long as 'regeneration' is simply a paper-thin device to facilitate a periodic personnel change none of this matters a great deal. In canonical Who, except in a changeover story, or in rare and ill-advised multi-Doctor anniversary stories, 'regeneration' was hardly ever brought on stage.

But Davies is obsessed with the concept, referencing it quite un-necessarily and using it, like the TARDIS and the sonic-screwdriver, as a one size fits all deus ex machina. (*) There's at least a suspicion that he had always intended Tennant to play the Doctor, but used Eccleston for a single season because he felt that regeneration is such a central part of the myth that it should be laid before the audience as early as possible. He certainly cast Derek Jacobi as the Master purely in order to change him into John Sims. And he has developed an appalling habit of re-defining how it works on a moment-by-moment basis. When River Song tells the Doctor that he will die if he wires his brain into the Device For Saving The Universe When The Doctor's Brain Is Wired Into It she adds 'And don't think you'll regenerate.' (Why not?) In the ludicrous 'Last of the Time Lords', it's arbitrarily decided that regeneration is an act of will: the Master can 'choose' not to change so as to spite the Doctor. In the rather good 'Turn Left' it turns out that the Doctor has died because he didn't have time to regenerate. And in 'Journey's End', regeneration becomes an all purpose trapdoor, to be used promiscuously to save RTD the bother of actually thinking up a story.

Full essay here:

http://andrewrilstone.blogspot.com/2008/09/412-413-stolen-earth-and-journeys-end.html

[CrazyK]

It's funny, I just heard on a comics Podcast, the theory that Johns' is picking up a thread of Alan Moore's Tales of the GLC from TWO DECADES AGO to launch all of this. They were reprinted in the DC Stories Of Alan Moore tpb and I'll be damned if there isn't at least a shred of possibility to it. Of course, those worlds and stories have all been destroyed by Zero Infinite Crisis Of The Multiple Earths Hour, so there's really no point...

[The Sprat]

It's funny, I just heard on a comics Podcast, the theory that Johns' is picking up a thread of Alan Moore's Tales of the GLC from TWO DECADES AGO to launch all of this. They were reprinted in the DC Stories Of Alan Moore tpb and I'll be damned if there isn't at least a shred of possibility to it. Of course, those worlds and stories have all been destroyed by Zero Infinite Crisis Of The Multiple Earths Hour, so there's really no point...

"Theory"?  "Shred of possibility"?  It's been totally and completely confirmed.  Reprinted in that Alan Moore collection (which is a great collection, BTW), you'll find a short Tales of the GLC called "Tygers" where Abin Sur visits Ysmault and is told the "Blackest Night" prophecy by Qull of the Five Inversions.  It mentions the enemies of the Corps, including the Weaponers of Qward, coming together to annihilate the Corps.  There's nothing in Moore/Qull's prophecy about the "war of light" stuff, but it does specifically mention Sodam Yat (even mentioning that he's a Daxamite) and says that Mogo will be the last Lantern to fall, after Ranx detonates a blink bomb at his core.  Although Moore has some fun with that dark prophecy, the real thrust of the story is how Qull used another prophecy to subtly manipulate Abin Sur into not trusting his ring, indirectly but deliberately causing Sur's death.

You're right that that version of the story hasn't necessarily "happened" since Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis (and the fact that let's face it:  DC writers change up continuity whenever the heck they want to, regardless of whether it's rationalized by a big cosmic event or not); in fact, Johns has already tweaked the connections of Sur's death with the Empire of Tears, the discovery of the Blackest Night, etc-- it now heavily involves Atrocitus, for one.  But the fact that Johns is turning out hundreds & hundreds of pages based on the ideas Moore developed for a one-off short story?  That's not even close to debatable.

[John Popa]

Maybe someday Johns will have an idea of his very own.

[The Sprat]

Maybe someday Johns will have an idea of his very own.

Wasn't the Sinestro Corps his idea?

[Chuck]

Alan Moore readily admits that his success in comics rests primarily on one aspect of his approach to the medium.

He brought devices and tropes from other medium to bear on comics. Up until Moore, superheroes acted within a narrow band of emotions and the plotlines (when there were plotlines) were shopworn. Even the high concept SF elements of superhero fare were borrowed. I exempt Kirby here.

So, here comes Moore with ideas and stories and levels of characterization that would have been the expected norm in a novel or TV show. He applies them with his deep understanding of comic storytelling and--SHAZAM!---he astounds everyone!

I'm not dismissing his talent in the least. The man himself has stated his surprise at how he stupified the comics biz with standard storytelling tropes. Maybe he even thought others would pick up where he started and run with this crazy idea. Some have. But, for the most part, Moore forms the core of a second wind for superhero comics. Now, rather than aping the Golden Age, as superhero comics did for the first forty years of their existance, they now ape what he did for two decades and counting.

[The Sprat]

Chuck, I understand the gist of what you're saying, but I'd like to hear some examples of how that principle of Moore's has applied to his success in comics.  Obviously, we could say that "V for Vendetta is extremely cinematic!" but that's incredibly simplistic.

"Levels of characterization"-- sure, I get that one, although I'm sure it's debatable by some.  Ideas & stories, though... what are some examples of Moore's superhero work where he applies the sort of genius that has worked in other media?

Ironic twist to the fact that Moore's success is attributed largely to him successfully applying principles from other media to comics:  when Moore's comics are adapted to Other Media, they almost always fail.  And Moore's most successful work, Watchmen, has been pointed out by many as existing in a state of pure "comic-ness"-- i.e., it relies so much on the format in which it was created that it couldn't work nearly as well in any other form, and only a madman (or perhaps an overindulgent fanboy with incredibly juvenile fascinations on violence & sex) would ever attempt to adapt it.

Moore is also quite the expert at crafting Big Moments that stick with the reader, long after story's over.  For instance:  after the Mercy comes off Superman and his bellow of anger actually becomes the background of the panel, knocking Robin off his feet and being described in subsequent narration as a "voice like Armageddon"-- that kind of thing probably didn't hurt the kind of legend he's become.

[Chuck]

Here's an example.

In that story where Batman, Robin and Wonder Woman show up to give Superman a birthday cake---

Moore builds from what would be the foundation of a silly Silver Age Superman story. Each of these iconic characters has a vivid hallucination. We see each character's hallucination through their eyes.

But rather than simply have them each experience some wacky adventure in which we see them use the full array of their abilities or super powers, Moore uses these episodes to explore the character of each of the four in way that fully utlizes each one's coolness factor and, as a side benefit for Moore, demonstrates the author's deep understanding of these classic figures. But, to his credit, it's not done in a "Look at me! I'm a friggin' genius!" way.

In addition to all this we get a cool turnabout on the villian (which may or may not have been lifted from the end of THE BLACK HOLE---Moore really needs to go to Ending School).

Now, all of what I described above would be old hat, old school, tired gimmicks to Euripides. But to the editors at DC and the comic reading public they were revelations.

If Kirby's genius is that he could make even his silliest ideas work through sheer earnestness, then Moore's genius was bringing everything he knows about storytelling to bear on comics and damn all reader expections.

[Captain_Marvel]

Maybe someday Johns will have an idea of his very own.

Like Booster Gold being more than comic relief?